Aspire, Advocate, and Advance: 2 Planners Talk Frankly About Career Challenges and Moving Up

Sophia Burns: Welcome to Short Takes, the three-episode podcast mini-series by the American Planning Association. I'm your host, Sophia Burns. Short Takes brings listeners into the field with planners who are pursuing newsworthy, innovative strategies for their communities and showing you why they worked.

In this episode, we hear about certain career challenges and how planners can better advocate for themselves when working with communities and leveling up their careers. Planning is a public-facing profession, from holding meetings and hearings to conducting surveys and site tours. Planners are often positioned in front of a group of people.

While these public-facing tasks are critical for community and stakeholder engagement, they can also be taxing. Negative comments come with the job, but that doesn't mean that they don't strike a nerve from time to time. My first guest knows that feeling all too well. She spoke with me about how she's thickened her skin over time, and how planners can approach tough conversations without second guessing themselves.

Gabby Hart: I am Gabby Hart. I am from Denver, Colorado, and I am a senior associate with Clarion Associates, where I primarily am responsible for drafting zoning codes. Prior to my current position, I had the pleasure of being a development review planner for the City of Boulder, Colorado, for several years. So having been across the public sector and the private sector of planning, and coming up on year seven of my planning career, I started finding myself wondering why I still feel a bit weary or unsure of all of that experience. And one likely factor is imposter syndrome.

Sure, it's a bit of a buzzword in the professional development world, but we're planners and we love buzzwords. The American Psychological Association defines imposter phenomenon as the situation in which highly accomplished, successful individuals paradoxically believe that they are frauds who ultimately will fail and be unmasked as incompetent. And in simpler and maybe less loaded terms, it often manifests as wondering, “Will I ever feel good at my job? Or do I actually know what I'm talking about?”

And we happen to work in a field that is riddled with opportunities for imposter syndrome to kick in. First, there's public scrutiny, though, despite our best efforts to convince people that we do indeed do this job to make their lives better and not worse, the public can be pretty brutal in their evaluation of your qualifications. Things like, “Why should we listen to you? Why should you be telling me what I get to do with my property?” And now, as a consultant, the question “Aren't you supposed to be the expert?” still makes my eyes twitch. But we have to remember that we're dealing with some big pieces of people's day-to-day lives, whether it's their home or their commute to work, their local park, or their community at large. It's to be expected that they have a lot of passion, and if we set that expectation to have a bit of pushback for ourselves, we're less likely to feel that jab to our professional gut and more likely to shift our efforts into trust-building skills.

Sophia: On top of dealing with passionate people in the communities they work in, planners often face another professional challenge: decision fatigue, which happens when a person's ability to make decisions worsens after having to make many choices. Because planners have to make calls on big and small things regularly, it's not surprising that their decision-making ability eventually takes a hit.

Gabby: Does this application meet the review criteria? How wide should this bike lane be? What kind of public outreach should we do for this project? How many backyard chickens is too many backyard chickens? It's a lot. And our brains actually do have a limit, which means if we are struggling to make one or a few of those many decisions, it's easy to jump to the conclusion that you aren't doing well at your job.

But when we feel all that pressure building, it's important to take a step back. Organize your thoughts. Prioritize the big stuff, and always ask for help when you need it. Have you ever totally ad-libbed the answer to a question received at a public hearing or public meeting? I know I have. Because of those three little words that are so hard to say: I don't know. Let me tell you, never once have I responded to someone who told me that they didn't know, or that they would need to get back to me with “how dare you!” So take comfort in knowing that that is an acceptable answer, and not knowing an answer does not equal you are bad at your job.

Sophia: Of course it doesn't. No one has all the answers. But after some time in the saddle, Gabby says that her insecurities began to fade once she accepted an undeniable truth about the gig. Pushback happens, but you can handle it.

Gabby: You know, these past seven years of my career, I've learned a lot about how to feel like you are making a difference. I feel like we all come out of planning school really ready and raring to go to change the world. And then, you know, you have to reframe your perspective on that. When you get into your first job, based on the community you're working in, based on the position you're in. And it's important to be able to reframe that perspective because I consider myself a cynical idealist, meaning that deep down, I'm still that planner that really wants to make a difference in people's life. But on the surface, I'm pretty ready for dreams to get crushed.

But by acknowledging that we do have a very challenging job and that you are going to come across pushback, you can give members of the public, you can give public officials all of the best, sound planning advice in the world, anything related to sustainability or affordable housing, all of these things that we learn in school. But you are likely to find people who don't want to hear it or push back against it or misunderstand it. And if you're ready to experience that and you're ready to respond to it, it's less doom and gloom. I think as long as we stay passionate about what we do, planners are really, really good at problem-solving, so I think we can end up finding that sort of dream scenario that's rooted in reality.

Sophia: Planners can also take comfort in knowing that other planners make mistakes, too. Sharing those experiences with each other can help alleviate some of that pressure to never fail. In fact, in our last Short Takes episode, we heard from planners about how important building a community of peers can be. It not only provides opportunities to network and learn, but also to commiserate about some of the job’s challenges.

Gabby: Some of the most cathartic conversations I have related to my job happen with fellow planners, exchanging stories about everything from public hearings gone horribly wrong, to errors and typos and documents to mishandled meetings. At the beginning of my planning career, I once approved accessory dwelling unit plans that were 20ft² over the maximum allowed, and I truly thought that the world was going to end. Spoiler alert, it didn't. You acknowledge the error, fix the error, and use it as a learning experience.

And this whole thing is to say, try not to forget your own humanity amidst all of our work for other humans. I mean, fundamentally, imposter syndrome is a psychological experience, meaning that you can't see when another person is feeling that way. And if you are feeling that way, it can be a pretty lonely experience. And so by being able to talk about it and hearing about it, you're less likely to feel alone in that. And even that can help dull some of the voices in your head that might be saying you're not good at your job. But also it's an opportunity for us to have some productive feedback and maybe some positive reinforcement. Let's work together to either correct the thought or to move on from the thought.

Sophia: Knowing how valuable you truly are can be an effective way to counteract imposter syndrome. It can also come in handy when making a career move. Employment for urban and regional planners is projected to grow by 4% from 2022 to 2032, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. That means 3,700 jobs will open up each year. Planners can use this opportunity to find more meaningful work, negotiate a raise or get better benefits—but only if they know how to advocate for themselves. My next guest and I talked about current hiring practices in the planning field and how planners can and should ask for more.

Kate Zanon: My name is Kate Zanon. I'm the general manager of community development for the City of Port Moody, which is in the Greater Vancouver area of Canada. And I'm also the vice chair of APA's Women in Planning division. I'm going to talk about negotiating with your employer. I first want to share that I am not a human resources professional. I am a planner. And so what I'm going to be sharing today is just from my experience and my colleagues’ experience over the last 15 to 20 years of sitting on both sides of the table.

When you're trying to figure out what pay should you be getting, do research. Learn the pay structure of the organization that you're in, or if you can't find it, look for a similar organization. Gain insight from your friends and colleagues and your friends of friends. Ask anyone who would have relevance to give you some insight. If it is a union position, read their collective agreement if it's available to you. Research the benefits, the financial incentives and other compensation. Know your strongest negotiating position before you sign on the dotted line. Don't talk yourself down. Whether you have comparable experience or you're stretching to the next level, you are still their top candidate and don't get lost in percentages. Really understand the bottom line of what the pay will mean for you.

Sophia: Money isn't the only thing to consider when looking into a new position or a new organization. What about all the other benefits? There are a few things that planners should be on the lookout for during a job interview that might not be said directly.

Kate: You should also understand the health benefits, the retirement benefits and any other ancillary benefits, such as vacation time, conferences, professional development, schedule flexibility or remote work. And then make sure you really know your highest priorities when you go into that negotiation room and negotiate with them.

It's also important to understand the team dynamics. Read the room through the hiring process. Observe and assess body language. How are they communicating with each other? How are they communicating with you? And then when you get into your negotiation, tailor your negotiation to understand and work to those dynamics.

And then you should also know your own risk tolerance. How badly do you want this job? Are you willing to give up something that's important to you to get this job? Or conversely, are you willing to walk away from the job if you don't get what you're looking for?

Sophia: After serving on various interview panels, Kate says that she's noticed a change over time in employee wants and needs, as well as what hiring organizations are looking for in a post-COVID world. Employers are increasingly offering more flexibility and opportunities for remote work, and at the same time, employees are craving a better work/life balance. How are they meeting each other in the middle?

Kate: But I do think hiring practices are recognizing people want more flexibility and that that's important to employees. I do think that employers in general are starting to understand more than traditional—just what are my hard skills? Are they a good fit? I've seen quite a significant change when I'm on an interview panel and how we have dialogue about who we're going to be hiring, what type of candidate, what type of elements the city needs to offer in our negotiation. And I would say that there are subtle changes and that there is a lot more understanding around remote work. Of course, we can be grateful for some of those changes and that employers are understanding. That's going to continue to be important to people.

Sophia: Getting what's important to you will, of course, require some negotiating. According to Fidelity Investments, 58% of young professionals do not negotiate their job offer, but 87% of those who do negotiate receive additional compensation, and those who negotiate increase their starting salaries by an average of $5,000. Though it can be intimidating, potential employees should ask for what they want.

Kate: It's a two-way dialogue. The company is asking you questions, and of course, you get usually offered the opportunity to ask your own questions. And generally people don't ask a lot. But I think this is a really important opportunity for you to learn a little bit more about the environment you're coming into. And again, I would say you need to start with what is important to you. What are your priorities in that position? Is it the type of work environment? Is it flexibility of how you work or when you work? Is it the type of projects you're going to be working on? And then you should be asking questions that relate specifically to what matters to you.

But I think it's also really important to think about how you phrase the questions. So if flexibility is important to you, I would not say, you know, “Do you allow for a flexible work environment?” I've seen people on interview panels immediately kind of flinch when they see that. But instead you could say, “Is your work format on a set schedule, or do you have a window of time in the day that I just need to accomplish my work within that time frame?” And that way you get a sense of how set the schedule is. Will there be flexibility? And so then down the road, if you continue through the process, you can approach that question in a little bit more detail.

Sophia: Maybe you're not interested in leaving your organization, but you are thinking about moving into a bigger role or developing new skills. This too is a chance to speak to your employer about moving up. And yes, you can negotiate here, too.

Kate: You actually have the same negotiating potential as an external candidate. In fact, in these circumstances, often your organization is more invested in you than ever because they want to promote you and they don't want you to leave. So again, if you have a collective agreement that governs your role, look into it. Know where there's latitude in that agreement and know where you can ask for something.

If money is not on the table for you, then again, look at what else can you negotiate? Can you ask for more vacation time? Can you get them to commit to send you to a conference annually or pay for your credentials?

It's also important to know what is available to you. So if it is a pay increase, is it on a step? Is it on a set percentage, or is it open ended? And so you know what the expectations are. But please ask for it. I don't know how many people I’ve heard say, “Well, I was happy with my pay, so I didn't want to cause waves and ask for something.” Most likely other people are asking, so you should ask, too. And that also prevents some pay disparity within your organizations.

Sophia: Staying employed at your current organization could also include going after a stretch role, a job that you have most of the required experience for, but not all of it. It's an excellent time for an employee to take stock of their own skills and show their employer how they can apply and grow those skills in a new role.

Kate: I would really look at the specific skills that are either in the job posting or the job description. So not the specific outcomes, but what's the skill they want demonstrated? And then I would look at your own skill set—what you've done in that job and other jobs—and demonstrate how you have that skill. So you may not be able to apply it exactly how they would like, how the job is going to have you apply it, but you're still showing. I understand that skill, I've mastered that skill, and I'm able to now reapply it into a new environment. And then I would actually give an example like that. That way, they can see you're adaptable, that you understand your skills and you're going to know how to apply them as new information and new opportunities are given to you.

Sophia: Sometimes putting your career first means leaving a good job for an even better one if that opportunity arises. Talk to your current employer, tell them what's going on and give them a chance to respond. You might be pleasantly surprised by the outcome.

Kate: Having that open and honest conversation can be really helpful. There's times I've been able to work with an employee to keep them, and there's times I have not, but I always appreciated the chance to have a conversation.

Sophia: Be sure to join us for our third and final episode on something that's always top of mind: parking. You don't want to miss it. And if you want to hear more great conversations with experts from across the planning landscape, subscribe to APA Podcasts so you'll never miss an episode. If you like what you're hearing, rate us on iTunes. You can find APA Podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find our entire library of episodes at Planning.org/podcast.