From Data Centers to City Streets: Rethinking Infrastructure in a Digital Age

[00:07] - Em Hall

Welcome to Critical Conversations in Transportation Planning, where we're bringing you a series of interviews with pioneers and industry leaders who are offering insights into the most challenging issues facing our field. This podcast is produced by the American Planning Association's Transportation Planning Division. TPD connects planners working across all transportation modes to share innovation, foster collaboration, and advocate for sustainable mobility solutions.

[00:34] - Divya Gandhi

I'm Divya Gandhi, a transportation planner and a member of the Transportation Planning Division Board.

[00:40] - Em Hall

And I'm Dr. Em Hall, an urban planning consultant and member of the TPD Board of Directors.

[00:46] - Divya Gandhi

In this episode, we speak with Manny Patole, an industry assistant professor at NYU Tandon Center for Urban Science and Progress, and a steering committee member for the APA's Water and Planning Network. We really enjoyed this conversation. Let's get right into it. Welcome, Manny. You work a lot around data centers, and data centers are often invisible in planning conversations. So if you had to explain data centers to a transportation planner in 1 minute, what would you emphasize on? And what would you warn them to not overlook?

[01:25] - Manny Patole

I think I'll start with the last part. I think it's complicated. I think this is one of the major challenges right now about data centers is how are they being defined? We've had some sessions already this week, or this conference, about how these definitions and terms are impacting how they are developed and how they are governed or not governed in the overall process. So I think, you know, when we're trying to understand what is a data center, especially for a transportation planner, it's trying— like everything else with planning is like, it's, it's a comprehensive question that needs to be addressed. And folks should ask questions where possible. But in terms of a more simpler answer, I think is, you know, it is a form of infrastructure. That is private in nature in most cases, that has many applications from government services to storage of information to computational algorithms for research.

[02:35] - Em Hall

I wanna talk about a specific example, your work in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. So something that you've talked about is the idea that community data science, must happen with communities. It seems kind of obvious, but not always the case. Sometimes things happen to or for people. And there's the notion that a planner or an academic in particular might sort of code switch to make that technical information accessible and actionable. What does that look like? And how do we as planners, we as academics, as you and I are, like, talk to folks in a way that makes sense to them and really accounts for their feedback in this process?

[03:15] - Manny Patole

Yeah, I like to draw draw upon like the parallels with planning and, and, and the space as well of, you know, there's the general field of planning and there's various approaches within it and how different people apply it in their daily lives, um, as, as a professional or as an academic or both, um, that there's, you know, there's people who are content-specific, so they're transportation planners or housing or rural or things like that. Similarly, community Community science or community-centered data science is a field of data science that tries to center communities first and the residents therein, similar to community planning or comprehensive planning. And the approach in these instances is understanding what those community needs are first, helping them articulate them, and helping the folks that are involved in the process understand that as the driver for any other changes. And in so doing, it's coming in, doing your homework, and being humble. You know, for me, for example, many of my conversations don't— I try not to introduce myself with the letters after my last name.

[04:27] - Em Hall

Sure.

[04:28] - Manny Patole

Right.

[04:28] - Em Hall

Yeah.

[04:29] - Manny Patole

Because in some— yes, there are some cases someone does want a professional or an expert to help validate and value the work that they want to do. But sometimes, it can be daunting and people feel a little bit anxious about not sounding as informed as they could be about something so that they might not be as open and honest. So the idea is coming in and, you know, when I was working in New York, I know the first thing I would say, "Hi, my name is Manny. I've never been north of the Bronx in my entire life." Right.

[04:59] - Em Hall

Which means a lot locally.

[05:00] - Manny Patole

Right. So, like, and it's like when you— because a lot of folks don't, you know, when they hear of New York, they only think of New York City. There is a vast region of New York State, right? You go all the way out to to like the North Fork, you go up to the Adirondacks, you go east to Niagara Falls, and there's a lot of differences there in terms of the geography and then demography and, and what do people value in those different places and what are those experiences they're in. So similarly, when you're approaching this work with, um, for data science and specifically community-centered and community-engaged data science is understanding the better questions to ask, right? So people when they're going into these processes, like when we talk about data centers or transportation planning and therein, how are you explaining the terms in a way that's not jargoning? But also even before you get into that, you know, do your homework, have a, you know, have a slice of pizza or, you know, a beer at a local bar and like understand what's going on in context.

[05:57] - Em Hall

Yeah. What did that look like in Baton Rouge then? Because you're pretty far away. Give us some—

[06:01] - Manny Patole

Yeah. Oh, of course. Yeah. So my first, you know, My first time doing that, I actually was staying at a hotel and I came in late and I was like, the only thing that opened was a pizzeria across the street. So I went in and had a slice of pizza. I saw there was a young woman outside who was waiting in the rain for a bus. There was a reroute, right? This transportation side, because there was a public event. So the bus was rerouted. And I asked, I was asking the person, oh, hey, what's going on? Why aren't they allowed to? Oh, they're not a paying customer, so I can't let them in. Right, so it's like, oh well, I get that, right? You don't want people loitering in your place because that takes away from another seat of a paying customer. So I said, all right, cool. So I invited them in because, you know, they're waiting in the rain, and it just gave me context, like, even from that interaction and then the subsequent conversation. And, you know, I had the— I have a per diem, so I help. I was like, hey, you want to have a slice of— you know, are you hungry, whatever else?

Like, so we, you know, we broke bread and we, you know, I was like, you want anything to drink? She's like, I want an orange soda. I was like, cool. So we sat there and talked, and I just understood. Like, I didn't come in with any questions. I was like, hey, what are you doing today? Like, tell me about what's going on, because like, I just flew in. Yeah. So she explained that, and then she also explained that she's experiencing homelessness. Um, so part of the thing is that she was going to where she was living, which was, you know, sadly underneath an overpass, right? So you start extrapolating from these stories the qualitative information you're getting. How do you then connect it with quantitative stuff, right? So you understanding that there are folks that are experiencing homelessness, but they do feel a sense of safety being out there. And at least what was explained to me, um, there was a question about the transportation and how is that impacted by local economic development. You start understanding the, the proximity of a downtown area and, and what are the things that are open or not.

It's like, so all these different things that come out of that, that simple conversation, or at least perceived, right? And it's up to you and how you want to tease it out and what do you want to take away from those experiences.

[08:02] - Em Hall

Right.

[08:03] - Divya Gandhi

Thank you, Manny. What I'm hearing is we need to start by understanding community needs and not just at the surface level, but by really helping communities articulate what they actually want. And to do that well, you know, like you very well said, we have to do our homework. We have to show up with humility and recognize that, you know, you're not the expert in their experience, but they are. This quite naturally leads us into, you know, how to think about how this work scales beyond any one perspective. And you've described very well the research as involving coalitions, like people from different, different backgrounds, people from law, computer science, urban planning, and community organizations. So what does that kind of an interdisciplinary structure require of everyone involved and what starts to break down when it's not working the way it actually should?

[08:57] - Manny Patole

There is this understanding of domain experience and how it connects with other domains, right? Understanding, like, if you're coming from the planning world, that you may not know everything about the engineering side, or you may not know everything about the law and policy side, right? Because you might be specialized or you're a generalist, things like that. Vice versa across the board, right? If you're going into it, if you're a small business owner or, you know, you're— is different than a person who's studying economics, right? They're, they're both in this field, but they have different lived experiences and different domain experience as well, right? Applied versus theoretical, you know, duration of tenure in the domain, things like that. So it is part of being a good project manager regardless, right? Every skill Every domain has one. But the idea is, how are you able to effectively make sure everyone's voice is being heard and is valued as part of the process and helping be that person that reflects back to everyone, like, what is being said and, you know, making those connections of like, oh, I heard you said this and recall from your homework. Oh yeah, you both have this similar experience.

How does that connect? So in the building of a coalition is trying to understand where is the common ground we all have, right? Even within these discrete domains. Where it falls apart is when someone is not able, for whatever reason, make sure everyone is at the table at the same time, right? There's, you know, there's these old ways of like doing politics of, oh yeah, I'm going to reschedule 3 times or something like that to demonstrate you have pole position, so to speak. How are you making sure that the people in the room are both those who are doing the work on the ground day to day, but also those who are at a higher level? Because there's always a— there's naturally a disconnect of the person who has the, you know, 10,000-foot view but is not always able to do the day-to-day tasks, but make sure that they're both valued equally. You know, how you're looking at this, like, as I teach about this vertical versus horizontal communication, right? How are the leaders able to align? And then how are their, their subsequent subject matter experts who are doing the day-to-day also able to connect on the work?

So even if the leaders are not able to, let's say, schedule a meeting, those, those others who are doing the work are also able to connect and reflect back like, hey, we're working together well and demonstrating this process. So it's a lot about effective communication. It's a lot about, you know, showing, as I tell my students as well, like showing up and being present, but also how do you follow through. So I think with a lot of coalition building, a lot of things break down when people make promises that aren't kept.

[11:51] - Em Hall

Yes.

[11:52] - Manny Patole

And are not able to really, um, show a good faith effort and being an active participant in the process. And that's also understanding everyone's limitations, right? Some— when you think about local governments, they're doing so many things with like constrained resources, right? And they don't have the same bandwidth as maybe private sector who can have someone only dedicated to 5 projects over the course of a week, whereas a local official and then also nonprofits, right, who are doing some of this work either on a volunteer basis as well. So how are you respective— how do you respect their participation and able to allocate work in an effective way that's not disproportionately impacting their work for other things as well?

[12:40] - Em Hall

Yeah, you mentioned your students, and I want to follow up on that thread a little bit. So I'm guessing, are you undergrad or graduate students?

[12:48] - Manny Patole

So CUSP is right now primarily a graduate program.

[12:52] - Em Hall

Yeah, okay.

[12:53] - Manny Patole

But I do have a lot of undergraduates in my class, and they also span disciplines from architecture all the way through like bio, you know, hard sciences to other things as well. So the idea of CUSP is interdisciplinary, and how do we— we have folks who are right now from anthropology to like zoology, right? It's a great mix. All of them are trying to understand this from— to be a better urban designer, urban planner, urban policy professional.

[13:20] - Em Hall

That's what I was kind of thinking. I mean, you know, talking about communication, obviously something very important to Divya and I, and part of the reason why we love doing this. And I'm kind of wondering, like, what sorts of things are students, planning students these days grappling with that, like, maybe wasn't even on your radar screen when you were— obviously, technology has changed a lot, and the fact that we're even talking about data centers is not something any of us would have been talking about when I started planning school less than a decade ago. So what do you think are some of the big things that students are caring about and sort of grappling with right now?

[13:53] - Manny Patole

I, you know, being very practical, I think it's the, the return on investment. I would love to have more students who want to learn more about community engagement and Arnstein's ladder and rules for radicals. And but at the end of the day, when they're going out to get a job, right, they have taken out loans. School is expensive.

[14:16] - Em Hall

Yeah.

[14:17] - Manny Patole

And it's prohibitively expensive for many folks as well. So the idea is that as much as they would love to be a more civic-minded, you know, person and doing good work, which all the work is good, you know, it's all relative. Sometimes you're looking at, well, what's going to make me more marketable, right? And how am I, like, how am I a T-shaped person, right? And that comes from another reading is like, how do you have a broad general understanding of multiple things, but how do you have depth in one or two things, right? So it looks like a T, right? So you go out. But the idea there is students then have to make this thing. They have 30 to 36 credits to play with and there's obviously requirements. So there's a very practical thing of like, I paid north of $50,000 a year, right? Let's be real about that. And it's, it's a, you know, it's an opportunity cost of do I work full-time and go to school part-time? Do I not and go that way and go full-time? I have other responsibilities at home to my family, right? Are you returning— are you a returning student versus coming straight out of college?

So these are all just these practical decisions even before you take your first class.

[15:34] - Em Hall

Yeah.

[15:35] - Manny Patole

And then when you're taking these classes, it's like, okay, well, what is the skill that I can learn here that will make me marketable for, you know, my, my summer internship that puts me in a position for a job that I can start paying back loans, afford to live and have 3 meals a day, and maybe, you know, every so often going out for pizza with friends or something like that. Right. And, but then there's also like, I really wanted to take this class with Divya or M or Manny, um, but I also know that I have to know these skills that the industry is looking for. And it's, it's kind of a chicken and egg. Is the industry looking for it because they hear about it as being important, or is it really important to that industry to know this, right? So like, when we're thinking about this conversation about AI is Yes, AI is out there, but how is that— it's coming into all of our worlds and all of our lives. But are we losing, you know, are we losing the forest through the trees here of like going back to this idea of community?

Are students able to understand how to engage in conversations? You know, you can't— I tell my— I tell everyone this, you can't ChatGPT a conversation. You can't AI a conversation. But the—

[16:50] - Em Hall

I suppose you could, but we know it'd be kind of weird.

[16:53] - Manny Patole

Yeah, it will definitely be kind of weird. And but there's, there's a whole nother, you know, there are some colleagues that are researching this and how it's actually starting to lead to some other mental health disparities. Um, but that, that's a whole nother conversation, another podcast. But the idea is like, as you're going into this, what are the skills that are necessary for your domain? What are the skills that are transferable?

[17:13] - Em Hall

Yes.

[17:13] - Manny Patole

And what are those things that can kind of do both? And then there's also What are you doing for your general peace of mind and knowledge, right?

[17:22] - Em Hall

Enjoy something that you're doing.

[17:24] - Manny Patole

Right. Like, you know, some people love land use law. I'm like, it is a valuable skill.

[17:29] - Em Hall

Absolutely.

[17:30] - Manny Patole

But I mean, the nuances of Euclidean zoning, sometimes when you're in that class, you're like, oh my gosh, please let it make it over. But it is one of those necessities, right? As compared to like one of the things that I teach, which is Citizen in the City, and looking at, you know, urban data and urban challenges through the lens of third sector organizations. Very niche. A lot of folks who want to work in third sector work with nonprofits and community-based organizations. They want to do that, but they also— I tell them upfront, there's not a lot of money in this, if at all.

[18:03] - Em Hall

Sure.

[18:03] - Manny Patole

Right. And many bigger firms who are bigger can afford pro bono services. So maybe as you're going in, like, this is something you want to do later on. But yeah, it's like it is a very long-winded answer of like of all this. But yeah, this is a practical about return on investment, right? It is about like what do you want to learn versus what do you want to do and who you want to be, right? And then it's a question of like what is the market looking for versus how are you making the market look for you?

[18:31] - Divya Gandhi

Totally, totally. I want to actually build on something you just mentioned. It sounds like this work really requires balance a really broad understanding across multiple fields while also going deep into, well, deep enough to engage meaningfully in each of those arenas, which is not easy to do, especially when everything that is about data centers is also evolving so quickly.

[18:58] - Manny Patole

Absolutely.

[19:00] - Divya Gandhi

So that actually shows up in a way of this bigger tension between research and the industry. And this is something we wonder a lot about. Is like, especially with data centers, you know, the industry is moving really fast, making real-time decisions while, you know, you coming from the research side, you're trying to keep up and also provide guidance while actually collecting data of what is actually happening. So how do you see that gap being bridged and where do you think we're still falling behind when it comes to aligning research with what's actually happening on the ground?

[19:36] - Manny Patole

Yeah, so I bring up this as well. I could talk about— always about my class. I love my students. I talk about Pasteur's Quadrant.

[19:44] - Em Hall

Okay.

[19:44] - Manny Patole

If you're not familiar with it, it's this idea of what are the 3 main quadrants of education, and therefore as an instructor or someone in academia, right? There is, you know, the Niels Bohrs of the world who are doing pure research, right? They are advancing that domain. They have the opportunity to do so, and they're not necessarily engaging on the applied side, but they're trying to understand the world of possibilities. Then you have the Edisons, right? Those who are applying something for some very tangible, practical purpose, right? You're making the light bulb, you're, you know, you're marketing these things, right? And then there was like, as it's told, right? There is the Pasteurs, the ones who are doing research in an applied way with the also the parallel stream of providing nuanced understanding to groups or many groups. Right. So all of these are necessary. Right. Those who are doing the pure research are having this opportunity to ideate and think beyond like the day-to-day needs, right?

[20:55] - Divya Gandhi

Right.

[20:55] - Manny Patole

And you need that because you have to— so you have to have someone who's going to be a visionary. On the other side, there's the folks who are doing the applied work and are able to take some of this stuff, but they're responding to the immediate needs now. There might be some anticipation of the future, right? And then there are folks who are like, as planners, who are educators and other folks. Not all faculty are researchers. Not all instructors are faculty, things like that. So it's like, how are you playing? So with me and other colleagues I've worked with across the globe at this point, um, there are a lot of folks who are doing both. They have some industry expertise, like you both as well, and they're doing other things that are helping bridge this gap, right? This idea of different forms of dissemination of knowledge— a podcast, articles, um, these ideas of speaking engagements and things— but also having the opportunity to go out and speak people. Like, I had the opportunity last night to go out with my aunt and uncle and some of their, their friends and family, like, who are understanding this realm of data centers.

But they are, you know, they've been politically active, you know, since, you know, they've been in college as well. And they, they're seeking to under— better understand so they can teach others, right? And then understand what's happening in their world. So in this gap, it's like, how are you helping your, you know, your, your immediate like, you know, this idea of community and then you're the society around that and then a larger audience. So there's, there's different ways that people can help bridge the gap. It's a question of what are they comfortable with doing, right? And who gives them the opportunity to do that?

[22:30] - Em Hall

You're taking in so much information all the time. I feel many in sharing a lot with me here that I didn't even get out of my planning program. No knock to that.

[22:38] - Divya Gandhi

Yeah.

[22:38] - Em Hall

So many different.

[22:39] - Manny Patole

But that's also it's, it's It's the constant evolution. So I like watching old sitcoms. And I was watching The Andy Griffith Show. Oh, old, old. Yeah. Yeah, right. And there was an episode a couple of weeks ago that was on TV. And Ronnie Howard, as a child, he walked around barefoot. He's walking around with his transistor radio in his ear. And Andy Griffith is like telling him, you know, hey, hey. And he's like, the kid's not listening. He's like, oh, sorry, Dad. I'm listening to the game. And they have this conversation of, Barnie Fife and him are sitting there like, oh, this technology is like— these kids are not— they're so disconnected. It's like, oh, yeah, we're going camp. He's trying to tell Ron Howard's character that, oh, we're going camping. We have to meet at the steps of City Hall at 5 o'clock on Friday. It's like, oh, yeah, we're going to go camping. And hopefully, they'll understand how to disconnect. And this is a transistor radio for a kid who's walking around listening to a baseball game, right? But the same conversations still happen today, right? You're talking about parents who are like, these kids are always on their devices.

They're not being present. They're just rotting their brains, right? And I remember what— I don't know how old you are, but I know for me, like, you know, there is the idiot box, right? You're sitting in front of the TV and you're watching some random program. Like, everything happens, you know, everything gets resolved in 23 minutes or less, right? But so there are always these challenges that happen. Every generation, and we sometimes forget that the people change, but the problems are still persistent. There's always this idea of like, is our next generation going to be able to do the things that we're going to be able to do, right? It's like you're being a parent, like you're always looking out for your kids and things like that. Similarly, in most societies, is having the same kind of parallel of like, is that next generation going to be prepared, right? The problems may— some of them may stay the same, like the the parallels are there, but the context changes a little bit. Like, we were talking about more technological age, right? Uh, you know, our grandparents were talking about, like, you know, well, we're still in periods of war, but, like, you know, nuclear proliferation, which actually might have happened a couple weeks ago too, but that's another thing.

[24:49] - Em Hall

Again, proving the point that these, these, uh, these themes return.

[24:53] - Manny Patole

These themes return, right? It's the whole, you know, if you, you know, I'm a fan of, uh, pop culture, and I always use that in my class. So I always talk about, you know, Princess Bride and Michael Schur things as well. But it's like, you know, fighting a land war in Russia, right? It's like, if you don't learn from history, you're bound to repeat it. That's right.

[25:11] - Em Hall

So I think, you know, that it kind of brings us to looking, looking back to look ahead. I mean, you know, a lot of these questions are going to come around, and transportation planners have been grappling with a lot of the same issues. Generation after generation, I think, you know, with the proliferation of AI, not just in the classroom, but as you mentioned, like literally in, it's sort of embedded in everything we're doing. What are the questions at the very least that transportation planners should be asking or pondering, whether they're students and they're figuring it out, or they're out there starting to be a practitioner or going into research? Like, what are the questions you at least hope people are asking or thinking about as we move forward?

[25:50] - Manny Patole

Are they understanding the questions around the problems in their physical immediate space and also broader problems as well? Um, reading last week about the history of Municipal Arts Society, which I'm a member of, and when they first started, they were talking about using roundabouts to calm traffic in 1903.

[26:11] - Em Hall

Wow.

[26:12] - Manny Patole

Right. So once again, parallel things, right? So it's like But, you know, some of these challenges are still persistent, right? And the, you know, the technology changes at that point in time in the, you know, the turn of the century, then it was just the advent of the vehicle and how was that, you know, changing the life of urban residents, right? And now we have the vehicle, but now we're having a different type of traffic, internet, right? This digital space, you know, radio and other things like that. We're not seeing those, those things coming up, but instead of physical cars, you have data. And yes, all computing is physical. As one of my other colleagues will say, and I agree. So how are we understanding— we still have the problem. We want to understand how can we alleviate traffic issues, how different approaches, right? We have complete streets and things like that. But how can certain technologies now help with that? But are we making informed decisions on how we're using it?

[27:05] - Em Hall

Sure.

[27:05] - Manny Patole

And how does that also make sure that we're doing it in a, in a responsible way for current and future residents of our lived environment. So when we're thinking about this, I was talking with others. When you're thinking about your AI solutions or whatever else, are you using a Ferrari when you need a Ford? Right? So there's sometimes these tools like we— it's any sales thing, right? You come in, someone sees you, it's like, hey, what are you in the mood for today? Right? Right. So you're going in, you want to get a pair of socks, you end up buying a three-piece suit, right? That's a good salesperson. It's not the fault that You know, you came in and you opted in, right? It's not the fault of the salesperson. It's like they were able to— same thing when we're thinking about any of these AI solutions that are out there. Like, how are you being informed in what you need for what you're doing?

[27:51] - Em Hall

Yeah.

[27:52] - Manny Patole

And I think the challenge right now is a lot of folks don't understand there's nuance on the other side, right? Then when you're talking about buying a car, for example, you generally know, okay, I'm a family. Am I doing this as a runaround car or am I looking at this from I want something just to like on a weekend, you know, a convertible, maybe like, you know, a '67 Hemi Cuda or something like that.

[28:14] - Em Hall

Just to randomly name any car.

[28:15] - Manny Patole

Right.

[28:16] - Divya Gandhi

Right.

[28:16] - Manny Patole

Or it's like I have, you know, whatever. Right.

[28:18] - Em Hall

We know what car you want.

[28:21] - Manny Patole

But the idea is like there's— you want to find the tool that's fitting for the job, but you also want— you don't want to buy a tool for a single purpose.

[28:29] - Em Hall

Sure.

[28:29] - Manny Patole

Right. So how are you making these informed decisions about what you need as a transportation planner, comprehensive planner, things like that, and how do you adapt that, like, what is your, you know, spatial analytics solution, right? What is the type of platform that you need for your office, right? And how does that fit to what is the comfort level of the people that are working with technology or without? And when we're thinking about similarly for AI and data centers, there is a nuanced conversation that needs to be had. There's a lot of stuff, like I said, the speed of technology is, you know, is amazing, right? When we think about Industry 1.0, from going to like like, you know, this— the Industrial Revolution and mills to now we're going from— then that was like a couple hundred years, and then from 1 to 2, 2 to 3, and now we're in— we're going from Industry 4 to Industry 5, and we're already talking about Industry 6. Wow. Right. And, and these, these time scales are also shifting in, in a smaller and smaller series. So yeah, so it's a, you know, buyer beware. Go in like when you're going— don't go shopping hungry, you know, otherwise you end up buying like 10 bags of cheesy poofs or something like that.

[29:38] - Em Hall

Oh, man, that's great. It almost makes me— almost makes me want to go back to school and learn more about this.

[00:29:43.460] - Manny Patole

Well, I think that's also what I love about being a teacher is that every day I learn.

[29:49] - Em Hall

Right.

[29:49] - Manny Patole

And I tell my students, like, I learn so much from them as well as I'm imparting to them as well. And then learning from my colleagues and having opportunities like this of like, oh, I didn't know that, or going to conferences. I think that's also what I try to tell others is we're going back and like understanding the best ways of bridging this knowledge of like being, you know, wanting to be open to new things. And I think that's one of those great parts about the human condition is that we're always curious. And how do we, how do we quench that first?

[30:18] - Em Hall

We can be a student of something else if we're in the classroom.

[30:20] - Manny Patole

Of course, of course.

[30:21] - Em Hall

That's incredible. Thank you so much for imparting that wisdom to us today, man. It's been a real pleasure to chat.

[30:26] - Manny Patole

Oh, thank you for the opportunity.

[30:27] - Em Hall

Yeah. All right. Thanks for listening to another episode of Critical Conversations in Transportation Planning, an APA podcast series brought to you by the APA Transportation Planning Division. To learn more about the division, visit TPD's website at transportation.planning.org. And if you want to hear more great conversations with experts from across the planning landscape, subscribe to the APA podcast so you'll never miss another episode. You can find the APA Podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Overcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find our entire library of past episodes at planning.org/podcast.