From Disinvestment to Renewal: Lessons from Detroit's Joe Louis Greenway

[00:05] - Em Hall

Welcome to Critical Conversations in Transportation Planning, where we're bringing you a series of interviews with pioneers and industry leaders who are offering insights into the most challenging issues facing our field. This podcast is produced by the American Planning Association's Transportation Planning Division. TPD connects planners working across all transportation modes to share innovation, foster collaboration, and advocate for sustainable mobility solutions.

[00:33] - Divya Gandhi

I'm Divya Gandhi, a transportation planner and a member of the Transportation Planning Division Board.

[00:41] - Em Hall

And I'm Dr. Em Hall, an urban planning consultant and member of the TPD Board of Directors. In this episode, we speak with Idrees Muhtar, Deputy Chief Greenways Planner, and Reuben Riggs-Bookman, Greenways Planner, both of whom are with the City of Detroit General Services Department.

[00:58] - Divya Gandhi

Before we dive in, let's start with, you know, why don't you guys tell us a little bit about yourself? How did you get into urban planning and what drew you to your specific role that you're in today at the City of Detroit?

[01:14] - Idrees Mutahr

I'm Idrees Mutar. I work for the City of Detroit General Services Department. I lead greenway planning at the City of Detroit. So my role is Deputy Chief Greenway Planner, and our role is really focused on sort of the early stages of greenway planning, so doing that community engagement, working on the design of the greenway, pursuing grants and the fundraising strategy for greenways across the city, especially with a focus on the Joe Lewis Greenway. That's really been the project I've been focused on for most of my time at the city. I started four years ago as a project manager for the Joe Lewis Greenway, and last year I was promoted to lead the Greenway Strategy citywide. 

My background is actually pretty unconventional. So I started as — I went to Wayne State for industrial design. So I have a design background. But after school, I, you know, I was really excited about public transportation in the city, looking at ways to make that better. So starting as just like an advocate, working with some local nonprofits who are advocating for better regional transit, Motor City Freeriders and TRU, got involved in that capacity. Eventually becoming more involved as a board member at MCFR, and then eventually staff working on the communication strategy.

So after several years of doing that work, having a design background, having a community organizing background, and building a lot of relationships at the governmental level as well as the community level, that set me up to do the work I'm doing now on greenways pretty well. Where, you know, there is a design component, but there's also a relational component with working with the community and doing that community engagement work. I'll pass it to Reuben.

[02:48] - Divya Gandhi

Yes, Reuben.

[02:49] - Reuben Riggs-Bookman

Hi, my name is Reuben Riggs-Bookman, and like Idrees, I'm a greenways planner at the City of Detroit, doing many of the same things, working on fundraising for the Joe Lewis, doing— supporting with the community engagement and project management around design, and generally kind of working to address problems as they arise in the field as we try to implement this really massive project.

My background, similar to Idrees, is also nontraditional for planners. I first got my start in cities as a community organizer back in St. Louis doing racial and economic justice organizing in neighborhoods there. And then after a little while, I decided I wanted to understand what was the kind of struggles we were up against a bit better. And so I went and pursued a PhD at the University of Michigan in anthropology and history, looking at the recent history of local government in the area and how they've addressed immense financial struggles. And at some point in this journey through academia, I realized, oh, I'd rather be practicing, and made that transition to urban planning shortly after. So I bring together this mix of advocacy, academia, and practice in local government together to this position.

And the Joe Louis Greenway and the greenways in Detroit in general just really appealed because they hit so many of the things that addressed through research, through advocacy. It's about — these projects are about equity. They're about making communities more stable and addressing the needs that people have in their neighborhoods. And so when this opportunity came available, I was like, oh, of course, this is it.

[04:48] - Em Hall

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think you two are very well suited to this project with your sort of diverse, not linear to planning backgrounds, because the Joe Louis Greenway, for folks who don't know — and I learned a lot about this just getting ready to talk to you two — it sits on land that carries a complex legacy. There's decades of disinvestment. You've got industrial use, community displacement, a lot of these things we talk about as planners, not always in a greenway setting. That's why I find this so fascinating and distinct.

And so how did that history shape the framework that your team used to approach community engagement from the start? And I know that you two have joined the project not from the very start necessarily, but you've done a bunch of that community engagement. So tell us distinctly in your careers, but then also other longer-term things that have been going on with the project.

[05:38] - Idrees Mutahr

Yeah, I can frame us a little bit with the timeline, and then I'll pass it to Reuben to answer the question.

[05:42] - Divya Gandhi

Perfect.

[05:43] - Idrees Mutahr

So, the Joe Louis Greenway project really started in 2019 when the city of Detroit acquired an eight-mile rail corridor and was granted $4 million from the Ralph C. Wilson Jr. Foundation for both doing a framework planning study as well as some funds for a trailhead park somewhere along the greenway at that point. And the city began a two-year planning process to create the vision for what started as a community idea, the Inner Circle Greenway. That started at the ground level, at the grassroots level, and really was developed into this broader vision for a greenway loop that connected the Detroit Riverfront into Quintercutt with an eight-mile abandoned rail corridor that crossed the city of Detroit, the former Detroit Terminal Railroad. And so, the city conducted a two-year planning process, and that was published in 2021. That set the vision for the project, the goals for the project, and outlined the route and created design standards for the greenway. I joined the year after that plan was published.

 So, really, my role over the last four years has been focused on implementation. How do we get this project built? Continuing that engagement as we design the greenway, as we pursue grants, as construction starts. So, and there's been a lot of momentum that we can jump into a little bit later. And then I'll pass it to Ruben to talk about his role and how long he's been around.

[07:05] - Reuben Riggs-Bookman

Yeah. So, I have been with the City of Detroit in this position for just over a year now, but I have been in and around the Joe Louis for since 2024, so, or 2023, so about three years or so in different capacities. You know, the question was, how do these complex legacies of working in a divested city show up in our framework and community engagement plans? And to say that they're a complex legacy is almost an understatement.

But I think the best way that you can summarize what the impact is, is on this idea of urban trauma, which is at the core of the Joe Louis Greenway Framework Plan. And that's summarized, I think, best by this feeling of residents that we encountered, that the city only shows up when you're giving us blight tickets. And they don't even take care of their own land, so why are you here now?  That's the feeling. The distrust, I think, is at the core of addressing those complex legacies. Before you can get to anything, you have to rebuild that trust.

And so the approach of the Joe Louis Greenway Framework Plan has been about being deeply relational, and it's about community engagement. It's about showing up to people's events, addressing their concerns, whether they deal directly with the Greenway or not. We heard from lots of residents about tax assessment issues, about property line disputes, about garbage, and things that are just not really directly about the Greenway, but they are about the Greenway, because it's about how people engage with the city. It's about their willingness to share their ideas and their hopes and dreams about their neighborhoods, you have to address — you have to be responsible before you can hear any of that, before you can have those conversations.

And so, that's been the core of the thrust, and that's looked like having an advisory council comprised of residents and officials from all along the 23 neighborhoods and four cities that the Joe Louis Greenway goes through, and it's translated into more than 200 community engagement meetings and touchpoints. And those are the ones that we've managed to capture. And that's not even counting all the side conversations that have happened that lasted so much longer than, you know, a passing comment. It's like you just sit there and you listen to people.

[09:41] - Idrees Mutahr

And I think I would add that, you asked about the land that the Joe Lewis Greenway sits on, and I think it's important to frame that this is a 29-mile greenway. And so actually it's passing through many, many different contexts, right? So it's four cities, it's 23 neighborhoods within the city of Detroit. And I think the framework plan really did a good job of really addressing the context that the greenway was coming into. So there wasn't one history or legacy that we were looking to address. The citizen advisory council that really guided the framework plan throughout the process had a representative from each council district to support in moving that process forward. As well as one representative from each of the communities, Hamtramck, Highland Park, and the city of Dearborn.

And so you really do see both in terms of the vision and the goals that came out of that process, a reflection of that feedback that we got in all those different contexts, but also in terms of the design standards and the route and the typology for each segment of the greenway. It really varies where you are. Not all of it is rail trail. Some of it's working within a very dense community like Southwest Detroit. That's very different, and they have very different challenges and issues than someone in Midwest- Tireman that's near the Warren Gateway today. And so we try to be sensitive about each of those different communities.

[10:58] - Divya Gandhi

Wow, that's excellent. Thank you for sharing that context. Super helpful for our transportation planners to really get an idea of the neighborhoods and the kinds of communities that this greenway actually runs through. And, just like both of you mentioned, this work clearly has not gone unnoticed. The City of Detroit's Planning and Development Department was just honored with a 2025 National Planning Excellence Award from the American Planning Association for the Joe Louis Greenway Neighborhood Planning Study. So it is a huge deal to be recognized, and that recognition really speaks to the depth of the work that has already gone into this.

So speaking of that depth, the framework for this project was published in 2021, as was just shared, and it was built on research, years and years of research and hundreds of community conversations. Idrees, you stepped into the project near implementation. So what does it actually mean to inherit that relational groundwork, and how do you honor it while also continuing to move it forward?

[12:01] - Idrees Mutahr

Yeah, so the framework obviously was a very robust engagement effort. And so in a lot of ways, that's a blessing, you know, working with a really solid foundation. But that also does pose its own challenge. You know, you're a new face in these communities. They've already spent a lot of time building relationships. And a lot of that work, my colleague Christina Peltier, who led that work on the framework plan, there was a lot of transition that happened between the two of us as I started working in a specific community.

I think it really starts with introductions. A lot of times she would be there at meetings with me, introducing me to the people that she worked with, building those new relationships. And then I think there's a process of, as I take ownership of a specific segment, leading a strategy in a certain area, as you get to know people, there's sort of this chain effect of, hey, you should really talk to this person, or, you know, the owner of this building would probably want to know about that, or this church is really involved in that lot, or they're building a garden there and you should talk to them. And you start to build your own networks and own relationships in these communities. 

And I think that really is reflective of our process, more broadly speaking, in that before we're getting to any big public engagement or big public meeting, we're always starting at the ground level and really trying to attend people's block club meetings, attend their community events, you know. Just thinking about the Littlefield community. I went to their — they had a little youth event where they were building trash bins, and it was just to teach kids construction skills. Very little to do with the Greenway or my work, but, A, a lot of fun, and also just a way to get to know people, and just show that it's not just — I'm not just here to get something out of you, but I really want to get to know you guys, understand what your needs are. And be there if you have questions as well. So, you know, not just popping in every once a month and asking for something. 

[13:45] - Reuben Riggs-Bookman

Yeah. And I'd say, I'm in even a different position from Idrees, who's been with the project for many years through the city already. But my first year, picking up those relationships has certainly been the big challenge, the big thing that I've had to work on. And the thing that is orienting my approach is about the experience I had doing community organizing before, about knowing how — what it feels — the difference between a reciprocal relationship and a transactional relationship, and making sure that as we engage with — as I engage with the residents, that I'm keeping reciprocity centered on what I'm doing.

And so, for example, the other week, Idrees and I were out flyering for a neighborhood, and I immediately ran into a leader of a block club. And I had the work I was supposed to be doing and ended up taking an hour instead to just chat with her about all the history of the drama that has happened on the streets and what happened in that house. What happened with this neighbor, and all the background, and all of those things, even though it's not exactly the flyering, and it's not exactly giving me direction on the question at hand that we had about the Greenway, it is about just deepening that relationship and listening.

[15:15] - Em Hall

That anecdote reminds me of a storytelling framework. So Divya and I have been fortunate to do a couple of workshops at NPC. And there's this storytelling framework we like called No Feel, Do. So it's kind of like getting to understand what people are thinking, getting the emotional attachment, and then how do you act upon it? But what we say is that often as planners or just humans, we want to jump to the do. We want to get the flyer out. We want to have the event. But if you hadn't had that conversation or you hadn't been to that kids' event, like, how do you know that the flyer or that event is the right thing?

[15:45] - Reuben Riggs-Bookman

Exactly.

[15:45] - Em Hall

I was wondering if there were any instances you could share that were like surprising to you or extra challenging or just an aha moment as you were working on this, because it's award-winning and you sound like you're doing incredible work and I'm sure some days you're just like, What am I doing here? How am I going to get all this done? How are we going to accomplish all this? So, you know, are there any like sort of teachable moments you think that other transportation planners might want to hear and learn from?

[16:10] - Idrees Mutahr

Yeah, I think there are tons of challenges that come up throughout the work. But, you know, I think one that's a good example of one of the challenges we deal with in terms of engaging the community with some of the work we were doing, I believe this was 2024 on the Verner Corridor in Southwest Detroit. Oftentimes we talk about working with the community. You have to have good relationships with the community. The community is not a monolith where everyone agrees with each other.

And in this case specifically, we were working on the route of the Greenway, and there was a debate between whether the Greenway should go in the Verner Alley or on the Verner Corridor itself, on Verner Street. And there was actually a conflict at the time between the resident groups and the block clubs who had a stake in beautifying the corridor, making it their central spine, and making it a pleasant place to be, and the businesses and the business group that — the Business Improvement District that wanted to preserve parking. In this context, Southwest Detroit is one of the densest parts of the city of Detroit. The Verner Corridor, especially in that area where we were planning the greenway, the buildings are back to back. There's very few lots in between buildings. So those businesses truly were relying on on-street parking. And so it was a consideration even when we did parking analysis, it was like, yeah, actually, we would be taking away parking from some of these businesses if we put the greenway here.

And we actually were able to come to a compromise. It was very tricky to navigate that engagement and try to make everyone happy. But I think we eventually came to a point where we proposed a hybrid solution where we were making pedestrian improvements to the corridor while preserving the parking. And then making the alley a piece of infrastructure that would provide cycling access and making safety improvements to that alley and beautifying that alley as a cycling corridor.

[18:01] - Reuben Riggs-Bookman

I am afraid of all the things that come to mind are the ones that are going to get me in trouble. But I think that there's probably — we had — as part of the neighborhood planning study and the City Planning Commission, there has been a recommendation to downzone along the corridor, the Joe Louis Greenway corridor, from higher industrial use into more mixed-use development, more residential commercial type of zoning. We kicked off that conversation for the first time probably about six months ago, maybe five or six months ago.

And I think it was really interesting to watch the Joe Louis Greenway take on a life of its own. The way that residents were able to articulate the need for big changes in their neighborhood, especially with regard to industry, because the Joe Louis was there, that I think caught me by surprise, was certainly, you know, one of the things I hope for when I do this work in the Joe Louis, is when people are able to say, hey, you guys are building this, like, world-class greenway right through our neighborhood. What are you going to do about the industry that's around here? You know, we're creating in some ways the leverage that they get to then use to hold the city more accountable, and I think that it was certainly surprising and interesting and exciting to watch unfold. That conversation continues to unfold. The downzoning conversation is still ongoing for us, but to watch that pick up some steam is exciting.

[19:53] - Em Hall

Yeah, it sounds like there are some distinct challenges in greenway planning as opposed to bike-ped or all the other things we think of in transportation planning, right? So, what's unique or interesting about greenway planning in particular that you found as planners now, but also like planners with different sorts of backgrounds too? You know, what is fun or distinct about this? It's kind of a once-in-a-lifetime project to work on in some ways, right? So, you know, talk to us a little bit about what greenway planning looks like.

[20:24] - Idrees Mutahr

I think the key distinction is that a greenway is really looking to serve so many more functions. It's not just a transportation corridor. And it's not just a practical intervention to give access to bikes and pedestrians. From the beginning, it's always been, this is more than a bike path. This is about creating quality recreation space for citizens in the city of Detroit. A lot of places where there is a park access gap, this is going to close that gap for those residents where they can't walk to a park within 10 minutes. There's also the element of — transportation is an important element in it, so you have to merge those two elements to really achieve the goals of the Greenway. So, making sure that it's a 24-hour amenity, which is something that our parks team is not used to. They're used to a 10 to 6. And so, we're navigating this world where we're kind of between the two. And so, I think that poses some unique challenges.

And then there's also a whole other world of, just like, the rail corridor, for example. There's an environmental component here in terms of remediating that land. Working through communities with heavy industrial contamination and addressing those — we're talking like 600,000 tons of debris that have been removed, 30,000 tires. And that's something that if you're building a bike lane, you're not really thinking about those kinds of things. And it's kind of unique to the Greenway project.

[21:53] - Reuben Riggs-Bookman

I mean, I think Idrees nailed it on the head. It's the theme that we've been touching on, the 23 neighborhoods, the four cities. Part of the challenge is that you are trying to plan for something that is so much more than just one facility. It is also people's investment in their neighborhood. Their community identity is tied up into it. They're — you know, is there a mountain of illegally dumped tires in my backyard? There's all these things that are happening, and you're trying to address them in so many different contexts.

And I think that for me has certainly been the blessing and the curse of this role, is that we're doing a lot of different things all at the same time, always. It's like that movie Everything Everywhere All at Once. It's just like, how many times can my mind be split?

[22:51] - Em Hall

And even just defining it for folks, I'm sure it's challenging. It takes like a lot of clarification. I mean, I'm learning a lot about what all that a greenway entails myself. So yeah, that's, that's a lot to balance for one project. But it really sounds like it's a lot of projects that end up being one project.

[23:09] - Reuben Riggs-Bookman

Yeah.

[22:09] - Divya Gandhi

Thank you for defining that for us. Really, it's such an important distinction for us to be able to understand this as well. It is not just a bike path or a traditional transportation corridor. And going in with the intention of the multiple functions that it serves at the same time with respect to recreation, mobility, economic opportunity, neighborhood connection. But transportation, like you said, is in itself absolutely the core element, but it's almost a starting point rather than it being a finish line. And the Greenway is really being asked to do so much more.

So thank you for leading that effort, and it really brings us to our next question, which is, these greenway projects like this one often promise transformation, but the communities along the route have heard these promises before. So how do you measure whether this project is actually changing the dynamic, and what would you point to right now as evidence that something's working?

[24:15] - Reuben Riggs-Bookman

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so this is such a — this is the thing that I think that keeps me and Idrees up at night, is making sure that we uphold the vision that people have outlined for us. And I think there are a lot of big promises that are made. And I understand this issue in part through a short-term and a long-term framework.

So in the short term, all the things that we know for sure, without a doubt, that we can deliver on already are transformative impacts. So how much debris is moved from people's backyards? You know, we did all the environmental remediation on this eight-mile rail corridor. And when I say that there are literal mountains behind people of debris, a lot of it filled with contamination, PCB, lead, mercury, all the stuff that the industrial legacy, removing that in and of itself is a tremendous win. That's going to really transform people's neighborhoods. At the same time, we, as Idrees mentioned, we are increasing park access for so many people across the city, narrowing that 10-minute walk gap between where people are and where green space and healthful recreation is. That's going to happen if we build it. Just if we build it, we're going to hit that goal.

And at the same time, like, even a bit more aspirationally, we get into like some of the more abstract goals about community identity and helping people feel attached to their neighborhoods. We see it all the time that after many people feeling like, oh, nothing has come to my neighborhood for decades and decades, and then here now you are, you're here. People are taking so much pride in the Greenway. Idrees can probably dive into this a little bit more, but there was this really exciting project called the Neighborhood Storytelling Project that Idrees led. I will go ahead and just pass it to you. I don't want to steal your thunder.

[26:24] - Idrees Mutahr

And this is actually another project that I inherited from my colleague Hanan Yahya, who was on the team as well, a resident of Southwest Detroit that was on the project team. And it was a really — we heard from one of the really important stakeholder groups in Midwest-Tireman, close to where we started construction near the Warren Gateway, one of our big trailheads. They, from the beginning, have really been excited and have been advocating for this greenway to come to their neighborhood. They want to see it drive investment in Midwest-Tireman, a neighborhood that really hasn't seen investment in a very long time, nearly half a century of disinvestment there.

But importantly, and actually one thing that I wasn't as familiar with until doing this project, that neighborhood was a really important middle-class Black neighborhood, the Old West Side, one of the first neighborhoods outside of Black Bottom on the Lower East Side that was a site of slum clearance in the city and removed for 375 and Lafayette Park. The Old West Side, as a counterpart, was a neighborhood that was really a source of pride for the Black community in Detroit. And one of the only stable middle-class neighborhoods for Black residents in the city, starting from the time of the Great Migration from the South, so looking at the 1920s even. 

And there was a lot of this pride for the neighborhood, a lot of history, and residents were concerned. Look, we're excited about this greenway, but we want to make sure that people who are coming here, visitors — because there are visitors coming to the greenway now, people from across the world, actually, there's an international presence — and they wanted to make sure that people were coming to the Greenway were aware of their neighborhood and who they were and what space they were occupying as visitors to this place. 

So we kicked off this project, the Joe Louis Greenway Neighborhood Stories Project, where we had four resident story gatherers conduct oral histories. They interviewed their neighbors and friends, and they collected a history of the neighborhood. And we distilled those interviews into 10 themes that we translated into interpretive signage that went along that first mile of the greenway. So if you go there now, you'll see these panels. They talk about different themes. It was a combination of those interviews as well as some content we got from a book about the neighborhood, Remembering Detroit's Old West Side, that the residents had shared with us. So it tells that story of that neighborhood and tries to carry that legacy forward.

[28:49] - Reuben Riggs-Bookman

And so when I talk, when I think about the transformative impact of the Greenway to just do that type of community building, community identity work and deliver that, which is what we are doing just by building the project, we know that we are having tremendous impact in the neighborhoods in Detroit, which is an important aspect of this whole conversation. Because there has been — whether it's really borne out by the results or not — there has been a feeling that the neighborhoods haven't gotten the attention that other parts of the city have gotten. And so to do this work and to say very clearly, oh, we're in the neighborhoods, this reflects the neighborhood, that's an incredible win.

And then we get into the much bigger, longer-term impacts that we hope that the Greenway has, and that's where the neighborhood planning study that you mentioned earlier, Divya, comes in. This is our answer to how do we make sure that it delivers all these other things we also wanted to deliver on economic development and housing stability, wealth creation for residents. The neighborhood planning study outlines strategies for this long-term leveraging of the Greenway into all these much bigger aspirations.

[30:08] - Idrees Mutahr

Yeah, I think there's, just with regards to the planning study, you know, I'm thinking about a topic that came up on our mobile workshop yesterday. We did a bus tour of the Joe Louis Greenway as part of the APA workshop, I mean APA conference. And the Joe Louis framework was published in 2021, and when it was published, it was this really big, ambitious vision for a 30-mile greenway project. I don't think anyone at the city at the time was prepared for the amount of resources that would come through the ARPA program for this project and how quickly it would move to construction.

So, to date, we've received over $200 million for construction of the Joe Louis Greenway. And a lot of that came from the state through state ARPA dollars and the MEDC, through Wayne County, Wayne County ARPA, as well as some city ARPA dollars. And so I don't think that this project would be moving at the pace that it was if it weren't for that program. 

But we've also secured other sources of funding. And I think that the point is that because the project was moving so much more quickly than we were expecting, the city did decide to implement and to allocate resources to conducting this planning study. That, you know, this project is coming now, and we need to start planning for the future and thinking about those challenges of displacement, making sure that this is a wealth-building tool for residents and not something that creates new challenges. What are some other impacts in terms —  there's five pillars, and my colleague Michelle Flournoy at the Planning Department could really speak to all the work that she's done.

[31:34] - Em Hall

We'll include some resources in the notes too for folks, they can read the plan and all that good stuff.

[31:39] - Idrees Mutahr

So, so that work is happening to think about the future and address the fact that this is actually moving a lot faster than expected.

[31:46] - Em Hall

That's a fun thing to hear in planning, is we're moving faster than we thought. I mean, the momentum is tremendous. And I think this is a good place to close out the conversation. And as you think about your work and just the work of all your amazing colleagues, what do you hope is said about this project in five or 10 years, either in and of itself or the vision that Detroit has for itself in that time and beyond the other cities and counties too? What do you look ahead or think or hope that that is the transformative aspect of this down the road a little bit?

No pressure, but just —

[32:23] - Reuben Riggs-Bookman

Yeah, that's a good question. [laughs]

[32:25] - Em Hall

I threw that one at you. [laughs]

[32:26] - Reuben Riggs-Bookman

No, no, I'm just kind of tickled by it. So because where my mind went was that I hope that it's not actually — the thing that I will measure the success of the Greenway on, at least one dimension, is if people in Midwest-Tireman, they have someone visiting and they say, oh, let's just go to the Greenway. You know? Like it becomes integrated into people's lives. It feels like, oh, this is where you want to take people. This is what you have to see in my neighborhood. And I think that if it gets to that level where it's just so core to how people move about and think about Detroit, I think that's going to be amazing.

[33:08] - Em Hall

That's great. Yeah.

[33:09] - Idrees Mutahr

Yeah. I think from my perspective, so much of my time on this project is experiencing the Greenway as a construction site because so much of it is still under construction. And for a long time, you know, we opened the first segment, the Warren Trailhead, at the end of 2023. And so seeing that first mile get activated has been really exciting.

But I think the connectivity component is what I'm really excited about. Just within the Midwest-Tireman neighborhood, you know, there was this — in the past, between the Midwest-Tireman neighborhood and Barton-McFarland on the other side of the rail corridor, neighbors say that it always felt like a dividing line. That abandoned rail corridor was a division between them and their neighbors just on the other side. And now, because there are some neighborhood connectors at various spots mid-block, it's possible to get from one neighborhood to the other via the greenway and to just cross the greenway directly.

And so that's just within one neighborhood, looking at two sides of the Greenway. I'm thinking about, once this 8-mile rail corridor is complete, once other segments of the Greenway are complete, what it'll be like for people to connect between neighborhoods and to use this as a corridor and for it to be activated in that way. I'm really excited to see how that pans out.

[34:21] - Em Hall

I love that. Sometimes it's like the quiet thing of like, let's just go do this thing in my neighborhood because it's cool. Like, then you know you've arrived, right? Like, we did it. We made it.

Thank you both so much for this conversation today. I've learned a ton. I know our listeners have as well. And we just wish you all the best of luck as you continue this work, this very ambitious project. And I promise I will be back sometime to ride the entire length. I can't wait to explore all of it.

[34:48] - Reuben Riggs-Bookman

Well, we'll give you a tour and ride around with you.

[34:52] - Em Hall

Awesome. Thank you both so much.

[34:53] - Idrees Mutahr

Thank you for having us. 

[34:58] - Em Hall

Thanks for listening to another episode of Critical Conversations in Transportation Planning, an APA podcast series brought to you by the APA Transportation Planning Division. To learn more about the division, visit TPD's website at transportation.planning.org. And if you want to hear more great conversations with experts from across the planning landscape, subscribe to the APA Podcast so you'll never miss another episode. You can find the APA Podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Overcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find our entire library of past episodes at planning.org/podcast.