The Future of Public Sector Planning with APA President Sue Schwartz, FAICP

[00:00:00.560] - Joe DeAngelis

Hello and welcome to the Trend Report podcast miniseries, a series of discussions with experts and planners on new and emerging trends, as well as their potential impacts on our communities and the practice of planning. My name is Joe DeAngelis, research manager at the American Planning association and your host. Today I'm super excited to be joined by the President of the American Planning Association, Sue Schwartz. Sue has worked in planning for more than four decades, with much of that time spent in Greensboro, North Carolina, where she's been the planning director since August 2011. Sue previously served as AICP president and has held other leadership positions for APA North Carolina, the chapter President's Council, and the Planning Accreditation Board. She has a bachelor's from the University of Pittsburgh in Geography and Urban Studies and holds a Master's in Geography from the University of North Carolina at Charlotte. Sue was inducted into the AICP College of Fellows in 2003. Today, I hope that we'll be capitalizing on all that experience that I just talked about to discuss a topic that seems to be on the minds of many planners today, the future of the public sector. Sue, how are things going today?

[00:01:03.340] - Sue Schwartz

Actually, today's a good day. So we're, you know, it's a beautiful day in North Carolina, so we're. We're all good.

[00:01:11.850] - Joe DeAngelis

Good stuff. So with that, maybe let's just jump into our conversation and discussion. Planning in the public sector seems to be in a bit of a challenging space right now. Our members report that hiring is difficult, that they're still working through some of the upheavals brought about by the COVID pandemic. The age demographics of the public sector workforce are also changing a lot, and we're seeing a lot of major technological change. The rise of AI being one example of that. As a planner and as someone who has worked in the field for a while, can you give us a sense of what you are seeing in the field today?

[00:01:45.330] - Sue Schwartz

So planning has always been an evolutionary kind of profession. You have to change with society changes, or you have to foresee the changes that are going to happen in society. Some of the bigger things I see. So let's talk about the hiring challenges. Yeah, it's crazy. So to give you a perspective, when I got my first job here in Greensboro, I was one of 300 applicants. My last opening, I had 11 applicants. That's crazy. I mean, it's just absolutely crazy to see that difference. So there is a challenge. The perception of work in the public sector, the pay grades in different cities. I think we pay pretty decently. But we are not as competitive as our friends and say Durham or Raleigh. And actually now planners are more mobile where they can work. So there's that again, the perception of how hard it is in the public sector given political environment. And we're going to talk about in a little bit, but it influences the perception of how are you going to be able to do your job. So there's a lot of things and then there's emerging technologies and keeping up with that or can I, will I be able to use emerging technologies?

[00:03:07.220] - Sue Schwartz

Will my organization be allow me to do that? So there's a lot of challenges that we're seeing, but we're a profession that takes on challenges pretty well, I think.

[00:03:18.950] - Joe DeAngelis

Yeah, absolutely. Maybe highlighting one of those challenges next. Planners are working with members of the community every single day. But in a lot of their outreach and engagement work, I think that they're witnessing firsthand some of the major challenges of extreme political polarization that's happening in the country today. There's a general sense that I've seen of civility that's in decline, that sometimes people are a little more willing to be downright mean in a lot of these interactions and that there's not much of a signal or sign that things are getting, getting better as we look into the future. What types of skills or characteristics or even attitudes do you think planners will need to be successful and thrive in this, in this kind of environment?

[00:04:05.450] - Sue Schwartz

So I think one thing from a skill set standpoint, a planning skill set, I think our ability to do different engagement techniques and have that toolbox, a pretty big and deep system that we have to call upon because you see everything from I was just reading in the trends report a link to interactive mapping and how cool is that? You can get a certain segment of the population, but you have to be able to devise things from everything from the most sophisticated of users of computers and systems to the most basic. Let me give you an example of one of our projects. We've had some interactive email and web surveys that we're working with a community and group. Two most successful public meetings. We do a public meeting, but we didn't do the we're going to stand up and talk to you and then you're going to fill out, give us cards and then do post it notes and voting dots. Not that that's a bad technique, but I think we're going to have to get a lot more creative about how we talk with people and make it a friendlier and inviting setting. We had open houses, we had Church help us sponsor and a community group.

[00:05:23.920] - Sue Schwartz

Help us sponsor those meetings instead of the city is coming to talk to you. Biggest hit we had, even though we got a lot of grief for it before it happened, we teamed up with the police department, who has a group of volunteers that do cookouts. We had to buy the food, but they come out and they make the hot dogs and hamburgers. Saturday, 150 people came to give us our opinion about the Randallman Road corridor. How cool is that? That's not a sophisticated technique. It's pretty tried and true. It sends a calmer setting. So I think we have to get better about thinking about the. Not just the mechanics of a meeting that we're doing anymore or the engagement that we're doing, but how do we do our best to create a positive and comfortable and safe environment for people to bring their information. I think the other piece that we're seeing, though is a lot of frustration with political situations at the city council level, to be honest, we've had to do some level of safety training just to make sure people. Just in case, not that it's happened, but that specter of safety has to be addressed because some people come in, they're really angry and they're really upset at the zoning hearing and they really don't, you know, they.

[00:06:46.880] - Sue Schwartz

They want to be heard. They feel like their property values, their single most investment in their life is going to be impacted. One, understanding the why they're upset can't always understand all of them, too. But two, again, being prepared. Because I think the easier part that I learned with my staff is they just want to know, what if? Is there a protocol do we go into when we set up a public meeting or in the city council chamber? What is. And we do have security, we do have extra police and that kind of thing. But if something happened, what do I do? And you feel a little better about that. So you have to have your own sense of security. And last but not least, I think a skill as you grow in this profession and work is understanding having a sense of personal resiliency. And that's something that takes intentional development. Understanding what are those things that you can help deal with these kind of level, these stressors that we don't have control over, but it's part of our job. And for us to be impactful and helpful to our communities, we've got to take care of ourselves, make sure that we're okay.

[00:07:55.840] - Sue Schwartz

Part of it. I think people need to be passionate about their job. They need to care. But there's a line of then taking it too personally then becomes. It impacts your mental health, quite frankly. And I think learning how those techniques, each person is different on how they build their personal resiliency, but I think it's increasingly an important skill to develop and take care and nurture yourself.

[00:08:24.710] - Joe DeAngelis

Absolutely. Do you think that that'll continue to be the case, you know, if we look ahead 10, 20 years into the future? I mean, I can only see it as growing more and more important as a skill. But I wanted to hear your take on that.

[00:08:35.900] - Sue Schwartz

Oh, absolutely. I think part of it this. I'm a little saddened that it's taken us this long. I mean, I'm in this profession 40 plus years. We've only started talking about this in the last two years or so. I'm saddened that this, you know, because it's like, oh yeah, I can handle it. It's, you know, it's whatever. We kind of toughen up. Yeah, buck up, buttercup kind of thing. And no, yeah, you should. I mean, you have to be strong in this job. But that takes work and effort. And I think as long as we understand and evolve and I think create an environment for our staffs to learn, I think that continues going to be a critical skill to not just survive these tough times, but you can thrive with your communities and help them navigate together?

[00:09:23.080] - Joe DeAngelis

Absolutely. I was having a conversation with somebody yesterday and we were talking a bit about how similar to this. It's not necessarily something that people just automatically learn about and build that skill just on their own through interactions with people, but something that can be hopefully actively taught and learned over, you know, a period of time. If they know that this is going to be a thing they need, it's not necessarily a natural thing that comes to a lot of people or planners who are in the field. They may have to be taught, right. And they may have to be like more like conscious in learning about this over time.

[00:09:54.400] - Sue Schwartz

Absolutely. I became more aware of it. I did a TED talk two years ago and one of my co speakers, she had the session a little after me and she was. She's a former Secret service agent, personal security expert and a clinical psychologist. She's just, you know, Wonder Woman. But she talks about that whole that this is a, this is an intentional thing you have to do, you know, And I laughed when she said it because I said, well, my dad was a Marine, so let me, let me explain to you how one toughened up in my growing up in my environment. And she said, yes, but your dad actually was teaching you skills and those skills need to evolve and be different just because, you know, my dad's method of coping with that probably needed to evolve. Even the Marine Corps evolved since then. But, you know, thinking through how do you, how do you handle, you know, when people are screaming and some. Sometimes it's knowing when you get to remove yourself from the situation. Sometimes it's just knowing how not to respond, how to move forward. And then, you know, being, if you're in a management situation, a director, you need to be able to make sure it's okay for your staff and that they have the training, that they have the skills to handle things because you're not always going to be there to step in.

[00:11:19.100] - Joe DeAngelis

Changing gears a little bit in the 2024 trend report, we did a deep dive on living and working in a hybrid world where our lives are this odd mix of digital and in person experiences and the potential for that to grow more heightened over time. In planning in the public sector, we're kind of seeing this push and pull with regard to working in the office, working remotely, the digital part of our job and the in person part of our job. And that's all been evolving since 2020 pretty significantly, I'd say. How do you see that ongoing shift impacting the planning profession, especially public sector plan planners, in the coming years?

[00:11:57.040] - Sue Schwartz

Well, I think it's going to be interesting because I think, you know, now, especially now that some national employers have famously said, oh, everyone would be back in the office and they set the trend, I'm fearful. So I think there's, there's three things I see in this one. I see people handling life a bit better with these options. And then here in the city of Greensboro, you can work from home two days a week if your job allows it. I mean, so like a librarian cannot work from home two days a week, for example. But I also see the option that people, because they have the equipment for it and they can do it, you know, they have a little more flexibility to handle family life, home life, whether it's caring for an elder or a special needs child or whatever themselves, frankly. So I think it's become a healthier workplace. The challenge for any kind of manager is to make sure that you have enough face to face time. Because one thing we've kind of learned is that you have to have those connections. You have to have intentional connections with each other to be effective.

[00:13:10.970] - Sue Schwartz

It becomes too easy to, you know, oh, they're at home that we don't, we won't bring them in or we don't want to disturb them or whatever. So you, you've got to evolve your management practices. You have to be available to the public. That is their, they expect that they might understand working from home, but they might not understand that you're not going to return their phone calls for two days because you're working from home. So we, for example, have the practice of you must keep up with your calls, you must respond. I mean, it's up to us to set the guidelines for that to be effective. So that doesn't impact our interaction with the public. But I think, you know, we've become, I think it's family friendlier. I think it's kind of helps, you know, the, it helps the employee manage a lot of different, all the different things we have to manage, not just work. So I. My hope, I think there'll be some push to make sure we have more people back in the office. But I hope it's. We find that balance, that equilibrium. I do know it has impacted competition.

[00:14:21.000] - Sue Schwartz

I have a former employee and went to work for another city that's about an hour drive from here. And he only has to go in the office once every two weeks. I'm like, what? He's still living, but part of it is the affordable housing crisis. He can't afford to move to that town, that city. So they have very flexible working programs so that they can have their employees. And you know it. He's been at it for a couple years now and I was shocked. I was just like, what do you mean? You still live in the Glenwood neighborhood and work down the interstate and like, no, they have, they have protocols in place and they make it work. So there's a lot of different drivers, not just the work atmosphere, but affordable housing or housing availability. Right. Transportation options, the cost of transportation, other things. So all these trends that we see and will be intersecting with each other and continue to evolve how we work our workplace in the public sector.

[00:15:20.730] - Joe DeAngelis

Building off of that a little bit, I would say this discussion around conditions in the workplace and how they might be changing the public sector workforce is changing quite a bit right now. I would say it's aging. There's, you know, there are new trends and signals that are emerging as long standing staff are retiring and emerging professionals are starting to enter the workplace even as hiring might be more challenging and difficult in certain circumstances. Are the needs of the new folks who are coming on board different from current employees or folks who have worked in the public sector for a long time? And if they are, you know, what do you think that means for the.

[00:15:55.960] - Sue Schwartz

Future of the field needs or things that we do to attract them. So this I just was thinking of because you and the question that you sent me is like, what is the need? Well, I think there's one, the flexibility to work from home. If we didn't have that, I don't think we would even have the 11 applications that we had. So the flexibility to have that kind of schedule, that's just baked in to what one does now. The ability to have technology. What level GIs do we have? Do they have access to it? Can they get different systems? Access to training? Which makes my heart glad. Training, when I was first in planning was almost seen as a privilege. You know, it's like it was doled out and handed to you hopefully as CM. You know, that's part of almost 20 years of CM that we push through. You know, the idea that you have to stay continuous. Well, the last several planners that I've hired, they have an expectation and they want to know it's not that everybody wants to go to the National Planning Conference, but they want to know that they are not, they are going to be able to keep up and they're going to be able to be a part of something bigger.

[00:17:10.790] - Sue Schwartz

So there's a, there's a baked in desire for that. And you know, we have, if you don't have that, I don't see how you keep your folks. So those are the things that come to mind. Our employees now, our youngest ones were part of the COVID generation. So they either didn't, they didn't have a graduation ceremony. They, there were other things. And so we, there's a little socialization we have to do on our part. It's just because you don't realize those things you pick up when you're with a group of people, a cohort in, in school. So it's, you know, it's nothing horrendous or terrible. It's just like, oh, I just, okay, we have to spend be. We have to be intentional about this, about how you work in an office or noise or. I do, I laugh because I have to get better headphones for everybody. So I couldn't get the cheapest thing on Amazon. Right. But they work better actually with the better equipment. But it was just kind of very shyly a year ago, one of my newest employees said, I don't know how to tell you this, but these headphones are crap.

[00:18:27.710] - Joe DeAngelis

Right? Yeah.

[00:18:28.770] - Sue Schwartz

And then they can say we tested these out and you know, and it was great. But I am a boomer, you know, I just don't think of those things. And it was great. So there's. Yeah. But I do learn. I am trainable.

[00:18:43.050] - Joe DeAngelis

I guess that's the important part. I would say this is my last question. I would say amidst some of the emerging issues and trends in the world today and in the profession, technological change, social change, political change, lots of things going on, some of which we touched on a little earlier. Can you maybe speak a little on why you see working in planning in the public sector as especially important and rewarding? And if you think that that'll continue to be true in the coming years as these trends continue to evolve and potentially impact the public sector?

[00:19:15.620] - Sue Schwartz

I think, you know, I probably have said this several times in my career, but I think the public sector needs planners more than ever. We are uniquely trained to look at the interconnectedness of things, but also look at the big picture of things and these things that impact. Looking at what's happened in North Carolina in the last month, we had this catastrophic unprecedented event in the western part of the state that's going to be a decade or more in recovery. But who can handle this? You've got to deal with the immediate and the survival and then getting to some level of sustaining and then what happens next. I don't know that any amount of planning could have predicted or prevented the catastrophe that occurred. It is once almost millennial kind of thing that happened. But understanding the infrastructure network, the needs of the humans, there's all the surface level stuff that has to happen, the water and sewer lines, transportation. But also you've got real human trauma and people have fears and concerns. And I think that's just an example. And then people want to interject. Well, this is a global warming. It is. But the time to talk about that might not be right now, but talking about it and then talking about how it impacts different parts of our population differently.

[00:20:59.830] - Sue Schwartz

I think the future and as these looking at the trends, our job has always been to stay ahead of the curve, to look what's going on out there, to prepare our communities the best we can to look at. For example, let's just take one piece. So electric car. We have a new electric battery plant going online. Thank you, Toyota. 3,000 jobs learning what that impact is on parking decks as a full electric cars. Our parking infrastructure is to handle the increased weight. Who thinks about that? Planners do. Who thinks about how to be, you know, how do we just disperse that kind of demand so that we can manage it better? Or do you wait Till, you know, something horrible happens and they go, oh, crap, why didn't we do this? So I think for us, I just kind of pull this back in because I'm. We have to look at all these things that are happening around us. We have to be able to translate, what does this mean to my community? Here are the actions we can take to address them and give people choices, but also have the conversation together about those choices.

[00:22:18.560] - Sue Schwartz

We are an important cog in the democratic process. Our job is to bring people together, talk about the future, talk through different choices about those futures, and make sure that everyone has an equitable chance in that future. It's a very noble thing. I think we have to sometimes lean into the nobility of what we do. It's hard to be noble when everybody's yelling at you because you didn't, you know, didn't get their zoning case approved or whatever. But the nobility is in the effort and making sure that we have a level playing field. We have a complete playing field, and we're working very hard for an outcome for our children, our grandchildren we'll be proud of.

[00:23:06.770] - Joe DeAngelis

I think that's a hopeful note on which we can end for today. Thank you, sue, for joining us for this really fun conversation. We really appreciate it.

[00:23:15.450] - Sue Schwartz

Joe, thank you very, very much. I had fun.

[00:23:18.410] - Joe DeAngelis

For more on this topic, an adapted version of this discussion, and many other collected trends and signals, Please check out APA's 2025 Trend Report, which is available at planning.org foresight.